ENVISIONING THE FUTURE OF ELDERCARE

Kimberly: 00:00:49

Greetings and welcome to this special conversation on aging.

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You know what we say?

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We're never too young

to think about aging.

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I'm your host, Kimberly gun with zoom

catchers, and we are super excited to

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bring you episode four, envisioning the

future of elder care and healthy aging.

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We have been so fortunate with our

podcast to have amazing guests and

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we have another amazing guest today.

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Her CV is super long.

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I'm going to give you the highlights and

she's going to break it down and give

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us some more details about who she is.

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And today we are proud

to have on our show.

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Jennifer Lieberman.

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She is a strategic innovation leader,

community builder, and facilitator.

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Her superpower is aligning

disparate groups around a shared

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purpose and vision, often exploring

the future of various topics.

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She founded a consulting practice

in: 2023

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as a healthcare innovation leader,

driving large scale change to help

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organizations define new futures.

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Engage stakeholders and

build programs for results.

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Jennifer founded and led Kaiser

Permanente's Garfield Innovation

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Center, a global model for visioning

the future of health and enabling

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people to prototype and test new ideas.

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Her work explored the future of

digital health and the role of

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social determinants of health.

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I am so super excited to bring

Jennifer to the show today.

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She is an MBA and an MPH from UC Berkeley,

and an MBA and MPH from UC Berkeley.

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I am so super excited to bring Jennifer

to Into the zoom catchers studio,

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Jennifer, how are you doing today?

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Jennifer: Thanks, Kimberly.

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I'm doing really well.

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And I'm, I'm really excited

to have this conversation

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Kimberly: with you.

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I am super excited too.

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I've had a cup and a half of coffee,

so I've got some energy to back it up.

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This conversation is so important

and I know it will resonate

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with so many people out there.

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So please tell us more about yourself

and in particular, how did you

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get into the health care space?

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Jennifer: Yeah, well, I know you

wanted to hear about how this happened.

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I, I guess it wasn't a surprise

that I ended up in, in health care.

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my mother was.

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an epidemiologist and I grew up, in

San Francisco, in the eighties, in the

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middle of the AIDS and HIV, epidemic.

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And I think my career, it

has always been clear to me.

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I wanted to be in healthcare, but

I've had a number of different.

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Places and, and, really early in my

career, I focused at a really high

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level on health care policy and all

the changes in the health care system.

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that had such an impact on how

we train health professionals, to

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practice in teams because that's

how healthcare is delivered.

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and it was great working in policy, but

I really, after graduate school, I really

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wanted to, to work for an organization

that was really, making a difference.

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And so I founded Kaiser Permanente's,

Innovation Center, which was.

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Super exciting.

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we did just some absolutely amazing work.

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and, since I've left Kaiser Permanente

and have been a consultant, I've really

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wanted to focus more on health rather

than health care and have been doing,

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quite a bit of work in the food insecurity

space, both globally and domestically.

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. Kimberly: Awesome.

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Awesome.

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There you have it, folks.

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She has been, uh, in the trenches in, in

this field and we are so appreciative that

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you're on to, help us explore this topic.

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And I really want to dive into

the topic, envisioning the future

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of elder care and healthy aging.

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Thank you.

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We've been able to talk offline about

this topic, and I've learned, more

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about you and your personal experiences.

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So can you just tell us more about how

your personal experiences have given

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you insight into this topic in general?

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Jennifer: Yeah, I mean, I

think today I will try to put

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on three hats, if you will.

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I mean, obviously I have this healthcare

background, but I've also had a lot of,

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personal experience as a caregiver, as

the daughter of someone with dementia.

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but then also hopefully I can

speak, personally as well.

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so my father, was diagnosed at

64 with early onset dementia.

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And at the time I was in my thirties

and had, an eight year journey,

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with my father, as a caregiver,

not in my home, but it was a pretty

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significant, part of my life.

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And it was a time when I started

having kids, and was really part

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of that, sandwich generation.

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and there were, there were a number

of things because I was both working

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in the health care field and I

was experiencing this journey.

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as a caregiver, and there were, I think,

three elements of that that are worth

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telling a little bit more about, I think

the first one was that when you get a

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diagnosis, like this, There is so much

that you need that is outside the formal

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health care system and those connections

are really hard to make, you know,

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we had to navigate things like a role

change and what that meant, emotionally.

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to go from being a daughter to almost

reversing roles as, as the parent and,

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you know, how we dealt with really

tricky conversations, like when it was

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no longer appropriate for my father

to drive, or when we came to the point

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where we could no longer have him in

my stepmother's home and he needed

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more care than we could provide.

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Navigating those conversations was so a

part of our journey, and yet it was like

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this much of the health care system.

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And, I think that was a real, challenge.

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I think the other thing, that

really struck me was, This was

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an experience about our family.

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It was about how my stepmother supported

my father and how I supported my father.

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I was an only child.

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but the healthcare system,

their interaction was just

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with my father and it was.

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At every turn, all of these decisions

were being made, especially further

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on as, as my father's dementia

progressed, and, he was even nonverbal.

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those conversations, and decisions were

being made by myself and my stepmother.

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The whole system was designed

to support my father.

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So I'll give you a great example.

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my father would go in for a visit

and I was working full time, right?

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So I couldn't come to all of these and

I would be put on the phone, which was.

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Which was terrific to do, but

it was so hard to participate

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in that conversation fully.

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And there are so many

technologies that exist now.

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Video is a great one, where

I could have been a lot more

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involved in those conversations.

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So, this idea of like engaging the

entire caregiving team is so important

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and, and something that I just

firsthand experience not having, and

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then the, the third thing, Kimberly,

and this is, this is so hard, I think

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something like 90 percent of Americans.

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Want to have a conversation about end of

life and only about a quarter of them do.

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And that's what played

out in my family, right?

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It was not until the very end when

we were having these conversations.

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And, my experience was that the

healthcare team kind of tiptoed around us.

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And at the very end when we signaled,

yes, we need to talk about this, I felt

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a sense of relief on their part, but

I was also thinking like, why didn't

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we have this conversation years ago?

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It would have, it would've done so many

beautiful things in this situation.

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So, I learned a lot in that process and.

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Because I was so young, because I was in

my 30s when this happened, I have taken

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it upon myself that, every friend that I

know that is now going through having to

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care for a parent with dementia, I feel

like I, I really owe it to them to talk

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about my experience, and what I would

do differently if I were to go back.

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Kimberly: Thank you so much for, for

sharing that because, based on our

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offline conversation, I knew that,

I know that about you and that topic

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resonates with me as well, because

I was a caregiver for my aunt who

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also was suffering from dementia.

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And had to navigate that

as a family with my partner

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and the

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Kimberly: healthcare system.

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And so I appreciate you sharing that

and I know that there's millions

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of people out there, that have

gone through a similar experience.

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so based on those experiences, and I

know you want to, we're gonna explore the

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topic of shifting from a patient centered,

healthcare system to more of a caregiver,

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approach or finding ways to better support

or more fully support the caregiver.

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What can you draw from your personal

experience and the experiences that you

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may be hearing from friends and family?

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How can we shift that, that focus or

make it more of a family oriented,

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a caregiver oriented experience,

how to engage on those topics,

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move, some of that taboo around end

of life and death so that we can.

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continue to prevail this topic,

where it's not, fraught with

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so much anxiety and stress.

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It's already a stressful, anxious

situation what would you recommend

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as far as moving in that direction?

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Jennifer: Yeah, yeah, I

have so many thoughts.

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I, I think on the first one, the

healthcare system tends to want to

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medicalize things and, what, especially

at the beginning of whatever, diagnosis,

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caregiving journey you're on, I

think just having peers to talk to

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about what it's like, I would have

benefited so much from talking to

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someone in my situation in my community

about the resources that existed.

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And, what was given to me was, oh,

hey, there's a, you know, there's a

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caregiver support group that meets at two

o'clock in San Francisco on a Tuesday.

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Right.

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And, you this whole idea of like

connecting other people who have

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been there and, and health care is

so local with resources, that would

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have been terrific if there had been

some kind of a navigator to help me,

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and my family figure out, how to, how

to connect in with different things.

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It doesn't necessarily have to be a

part of the health care system, but

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a better handoff to a lot of those.

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Transcripts provided you know, I

also just think we have a lot of

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existing technology, that can bring

families into the picture more.

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And I think acknowledging and recognizing

that, you know, if you go, if you have

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to take a family member, to an inpatient

visit, why can't we have video to pipe

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in, family members and, and in many

cases, that could be adult children

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that are spread across the country.

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I just, there are ways to solve for that

problem and it's, it's really a mindset

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that, that needs to, that needs to shift.

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on, on those two elements, I think

there are some pretty clear, fixes.

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on the end of life piece, I think this

is something, that we, we need to start

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ourselves like, 90 percent of the country,

folks want to talk about end of life

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and they just don't end up doing it.

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And.

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I think, Kimberly, this is where folks

like you and I, need to just start, right?

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Like, all of us are aging.

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it is not easy to get off

this planet gracefully.

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And so I think all of us can

begin having these conversations

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with our own loved ones.

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I think there's this tendency,

and I saw it when I was at Kaiser

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Permanente, and we would, we would

engage what we thought were seniors.

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To talk about, concepts.

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And instead of having them resonate

for themselves, a lot of people, in

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their seventies would say, Oh, that's

great for my mom in her nineties.

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Right.

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Right.

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So, like they're wonderful games.

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There's a, there's a deck of

cards called hello, that used

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to be called my gift of grace.

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And it's like a very accessible way

to start talking about things that

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are, are meaningful and valuable.

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And I think Kimberly, rather than

you and I asking, other people

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to start this conversation.

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I think we have to start this

conversation ourselves with our own

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families, our own friends, to just

normalize and de stigmatize this.

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And, my own kids that are Gen Z,

like they're all over this, right?

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Like, I think it's a conversation

we can, and we just need to have.

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So, those are my thoughts.

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Kimberly: I, I love it.

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And I, and I agree.

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And I think that, we've been fortunate

to have other guests on the show

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to, discuss this very issue, end

of life and the conversations.

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And.

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I think it's just hard and I think for

our culture in particular, you know, we

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have a very youth oriented culture, so

people aren't, end of life, what, please,

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old age, please don't talk about it.

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There's, I think there's like a

natural kind of fear or pulling

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back or drawing away from the topic.

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And for me, as a caregiver from my

aunt, it was, it was a, there were

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a lot of positives and there were

a lot of blessings in disguise.

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And one of them.

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It got me thinking about my own life

and my own death and my own end of life.

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And I started to have those conversations

with partners and families and these

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are things I want and I don't want this.

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What do you think?

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And, and the more I talk about

it, the less fearful I am, and I

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think that's one of my messages I

want to put out there to people.

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It's like, talk about it.

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the earth isn't going to open

up and swallow you by having

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this conversation, right?

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Like nothing, nothing weird

is really going to happen.

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You're going to, you know, pick

up and life is going to move on.

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but what do you think it is that prevents

people from even engaging the topic?

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Is it fear?

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Is it something we're just not used to?

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And how do you think we can, what

other things can we do to begin

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to integrate it more into our

regular conversations and being?

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Jennifer: It's such a

good question, Kimberly.

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I think part of it is fear.

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And, I think if you start these

conversations later in life, it's a

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lot more difficult than if you start

them in your thirties and forties.

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And, I think if you begin those

conversations earlier, there's

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a lot more runway, right?

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and, they can even be around like,

Hey, what happens if I'm hit by a bus?

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Right?

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so, I think just.

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starting earlier rather than later

and, and normalizing them is, is

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the best that, that we can do.

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But it would be super interesting, for

you to have a guess that that focuses

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in on that area because there are a lot

of people who do, think quite deeply

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about end of life and, and some of those

folks, there's been a proliferation

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in the past 10 years around games.

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and ways to make these

conversations, just part of life.

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And, and there has even been, peer

reviewed research that has looked

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into the effectiveness of these games.

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I'm not an expert in this area, but

there are people who are, And that would

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just be a fascinating conversation.

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So when, when you get that guest

on your show, I want to listen

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Kimberly: in.

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Absolutely.

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Because when you said that my ears

really perked up because I was like, wow.

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And I taught, um, in public schools

for a while for a couple of years.

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And, you know, we did a lot of

gaming and, Especially nowadays

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with kids coming around, gaming is

such an important part, even adults.

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And it's like, what an idea

to gamify, the gamification

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of the conversations on aging.

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I, I love it.

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I think it's great.

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I think anything you, anything we can

do to Make things fun and interesting.

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I'm all for it.

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And you know, to get back to what

you're saying, the two of us having

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a conversation and I think about

envisioning the future for my elder

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care and healthy aging You know, I've

given it some thought and I know I want

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people around me who are supporting me.

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I know I want caregivers who are,

engaged in this topic and who

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understand my needs and their needs.

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And I know that I want to be in

a healthcare system or a part

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of a healthcare system that is

supportive of me and a community.

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So I've given it some thought,

I've talked about it, I've done

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research and what about yourself?

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what sort of.

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What vision do you have for

your own, end of life and that,

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that level of care for yourself?

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Jennifer: it's interesting that you

ask that because I think my experience

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has been when you see an end of life.

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That you don't want to repeat.

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You're just a lot more, focused

on making sure that that doesn't

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happen, to your own family.

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And so, being able, to die at

home, I think is really important

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and, and not being a, a burden.

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to my kids or spouse is

incredibly important to me.

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so, it's a good reminder that,

I myself need to have more of

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these explicit conversations.

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Sometimes you think just because you've

got the thought, doesn't necessarily

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mean that, that the folks around

you, know what, know what that is.

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Kimberly: And it's, like you said, it,

like we've been talking about, it's

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not something that a lot of people

want to talk about, certainly don't

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want to wake up every day and wonder,

you know, my, about my end of life.

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But I think, based on my research and

talking to other people, unfortunately, a

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lot of people end up at that place where

they wish they had been thinking about it.

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And here they are no longer maybe

in a physical or mental or emotional

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space to think through those things.

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and so therefore people are now scrambling

trying to make it happen for them.

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And we don't know.

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It's like, I don't know

what Aunt Sally wants.

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She never said it to me.

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And then you're dealing

with family dynamics.

303

: 00:20:47

Some people want this for Aunt Sally, XYZ

person doesn't want that for Aunt Sally.

304

: 00:20:54

with our family and our aunt, we

were fortunate in that she had

305

: 00:20:57

given it a lot of thought years ago.

306

: 00:21:00

So we were just.

307

: 00:21:02

executing her wishes and we were so

so grateful that she had done that,

308

: 00:21:07

made it really clear verbally and in

writing and so I can't stress enough

309

: 00:21:13

for people to start to really make it

clear and write it down and to think

310

: 00:21:19

about it so that your loved ones aren't

left scrambling and fighting over you

311

: 00:21:24

know we want to keep on Sally at home

she wants to go here clarification

312

: 00:21:29

would really help and did you have a

similar experience with your family?

313

: 00:21:33

You

314

: 00:21:33

Jennifer: know, I don't think we spent

enough time talking early on about,

315

: 00:21:39

what, what really mattered, especially

when my father was first diagnosed.

316

: 00:21:43

And I think, especially with

dementia, that's tough because,

317

: 00:21:47

you know, there, there's a window.

318

: 00:21:49

So if, if I would do it over again, I

would probably have some more explicit

319

: 00:21:53

conversations, really, really early on.

320

: 00:21:57

Kimberly: What would you recommend,

though, as far as having conversations

321

: 00:22:00

with younger people, teens, children,

how would you suggest we, we approach

322

: 00:22:06

it with our, our loved ones, maybe

30s and 40s, but teens and younger?

323

: 00:22:14

Jennifer: Yeah, it's such a good question.

324

: 00:22:16

Kimberly, the honest answer is, I

think there actually is quite a bit

325

: 00:22:22

of knowledge in this space and I'm not

sure that I'm, I, you know, I know how

326

: 00:22:27

to answer it, but I do know that there

are people who do know how to answer it.

327

: 00:22:32

And, I think there's a whole.

328

: 00:22:34

body of work around life care planning,

where there are different conversations

329

: 00:22:39

that are appropriate at different stages.

330

: 00:22:42

and that would be something, that

would be super interesting, to

331

: 00:22:46

explore with, with a real expert, in

332

: 00:22:48

Kimberly: that space.

333

: 00:22:50

Awesome.

334

: 00:22:51

So I'm going to put it out there.

335

: 00:22:53

If there are people out there

watching who have some expertise,

336

: 00:22:56

some deeper knowledge on that topic.

337

: 00:22:58

Shoot us an email.

338

: 00:22:59

We'd love to have you on

and so we can explore that.

339

: 00:23:02

Yeah.

340

: 00:23:02

Thank you so much for being here

We're here with Jennifer Lieberman

341

: 00:23:05

Discussing, envisioning the future

of elder care and healthy aging

342

: 00:23:10

I want to shift the conversation

to talk about some topics that I

343

: 00:23:15

know that you have been exploring

professionally, and that is issues around

344

: 00:23:19

food insecurity, social connectivity,

and social determinants of health.

345

: 00:23:25

And, I know that those are buzzwords,

you know, out there, but, tell us more

346

: 00:23:30

about those issues and how they're,

I know they're kind of becoming more

347

: 00:23:33

prominent vernacular these days.

348

: 00:23:36

Yeah, yeah.

349

: 00:23:37

Jennifer: No, Kimberly.

350

: 00:23:38

Thanks for the pivot.

351

: 00:23:39

You know, I think often We think of,

of health care and we talk about the

352

: 00:23:44

sick care system, and I think there

has been a recognition in the health

353

: 00:23:50

care industry over the past 10 plus

years that all of the things that you

354

: 00:23:54

rattled off, those are that social

care or the social determinants of

355

: 00:23:59

health, and the health care system, I

think, has gotten a lot wiser about it.

356

: 00:24:04

Thank you.

357

: 00:24:04

the fact that your, your zip code is

a greater predictor of your health

358

: 00:24:07

than your genetic code and that all of

those community factors really play a

359

: 00:24:13

huge, a huge role in, in your physical

health, from the community perspective.

360

: 00:24:21

That's the work that a lot of

community based organizations

361

: 00:24:24

have been doing forever.

362

: 00:24:26

so, it depends on, it really,

depends on your, perspective.

363

: 00:24:31

there's some exciting

shifts that are happening.

364

: 00:24:33

so CMS, which is The government agency

that regulates the two big, public health

365

: 00:24:40

insurance programs, Medicare and Medicaid.

366

: 00:24:42

they've just put in a new rule that

at the beginning of: 2024

367

: 00:24:47

providers are gonna need to screen

for the social determinants of health.

368

: 00:24:51

and that is a step in the right direction.

369

: 00:24:53

It is not.

370

: 00:24:55

that those health care providers,

are required to address

371

: 00:24:59

the social determinants of

health, but at least screen.

372

: 00:25:02

And that, that is a first step.

373

: 00:25:03

There's, there's still a ways to go.

374

: 00:25:06

so I think there's a greater

recognition of this and that's terrific.

375

: 00:25:11

I, I think, Another, element that

is getting a lot of attention right

376

: 00:25:16

now, and I am so fascinated by

this, is the focus on loneliness

377

: 00:25:24

and So the Surgeon General, Dr.

378

: 00:25:26

Vivek Murthy,

379

: 00:25:30

just released a report this

year, it was like 81 pages.

380

: 00:25:35

on the impacts of social

isolation and, social isolation,

381

: 00:25:41

not just breaks people's hearts

figuratively, but literally as well.

382

: 00:25:46

and it is tied to increased risk

of stroke and cardiovascular

383

: 00:25:51

disease, dementia and depression.

384

: 00:25:54

and when the surgeon general says like,

I am more concerned about the impacts

385

: 00:25:59

of social isolation than obesity.

386

: 00:26:02

that is really something

to pay attention to.

387

: 00:26:05

I, I think I heard the statistic

that social isolation is like

388

: 00:26:08

smoking 15 cigarettes a day.

389

: 00:26:11

so there's clearly a problem.

390

: 00:26:14

and, and by the way, this is not just.

391

: 00:26:17

with seniors.

392

: 00:26:18

In fact, I think, young people are at

even greater risk for social isolation,

393

: 00:26:24

than people later in their lives.

394

: 00:26:27

but how we address Social isolation,

I think is, is super interesting.

395

: 00:26:34

it is the kind of thing that

carries a lot of stigma.

396

: 00:26:37

just like those end of life conversations.

397

: 00:26:41

Who wants to talk or raise their hand?

398

: 00:26:43

sign me up for a social isolation.

399

: 00:26:47

Exactly.

400

: 00:26:47

Program, right?

401

: 00:26:49

Yeah, exactly.

402

: 00:26:50

And so, when I was at Kaiser Permanente,

we were looking at some super innovative

403

: 00:26:56

programs, to address this and, a

lot of these kind of require what I

404

: 00:27:02

call Trojan horse solutions because

you can't address the issue head on.

405

: 00:27:09

You have to kind of back into it for

something that is more accessible

406

: 00:27:14

and, and has less stigma and, I think

helping people, contributing, when,

407

: 00:27:25

when seniors are able to volunteer

and share their wisdom, and help

408

: 00:27:31

others, they are helping others.

409

: 00:27:34

But they're also really

helping themselves.

410

: 00:27:38

so there are some super interesting,

models in many communities.

411

: 00:27:44

there's a an organization called

Eldera AI, which is creating a, a

412

: 00:27:49

virtual village to connect seniors.

413

: 00:27:54

and youth in a mentoring relationship

where, folks over 60 are sharing

414

: 00:27:59

their wisdom in the world, with youth.

415

: 00:28:03

and, again, I think this idea of it,

it is much harder to receive than to

416

: 00:28:08

give and models where we engage people

in community service to help others.

417

: 00:28:17

it's just it's such a virtuous

circle where we're helping everyone.

418

: 00:28:21

and I'm, I'm super interested,

in a lot of those solutions.

419

: 00:28:27

Kimberly: And it, it really sounds, you

know, interesting what you're describing.

420

: 00:28:30

And I think that, you know, as a citizen

of this country and grown up in this

421

: 00:28:35

society, so much has been, so much

emphasis seems to be placed on being

422

: 00:28:40

able to do it on your own and being

an individual and, and that's great

423

: 00:28:45

for, for some things, but not so much

when you're 90 and you're at home and

424

: 00:28:50

all of a sudden there's no one around.

425

: 00:28:53

Those connections are not, not as strong

as they used to be because Absolutely.

426

: 00:28:57

Friends have passed

and family's not close.

427

: 00:29:00

So how do you envision, you know,

moving more in that direction?

428

: 00:29:04

Is it just a matter, not just, but is it

one thing to just to get the word out and

429

: 00:29:08

let people know these kinds of programs?

430

: 00:29:13

Jennifer: Yeah, I mean, I

think there are a lot of these

431

: 00:29:17

programs that that do exist.

432

: 00:29:20

I would say both formally and informally.

433

: 00:29:22

So there are a lot of super

interesting elder village models.

434

: 00:29:29

some of them are, physically, how

do we bring seniors together, but

435

: 00:29:33

there are virtual elder villages,

Ashby village in the East Bay is a

436

: 00:29:38

great example where, people opt into

a network to help each other out.

437

: 00:29:45

and these exist, not just in the Bay Area.

438

: 00:29:47

They exist nationally.

439

: 00:29:48

there are a lot of these

all over the country.

440

: 00:29:51

And lots of different models where,

people really, commit to helping

441

: 00:29:55

each other, to, to the point of, when

they can't anymore and, and, build

442

: 00:30:01

relationships and purpose and connection

in the process of, of doing that.

443

: 00:30:07

So I think there are those models,

as, as I now have a kid in high

444

: 00:30:11

school and I'm thinking about like,

well, what's next, there are a

445

: 00:30:14

lot of, Friends that are thinking

about, well, where do I retire to?

446

: 00:30:18

And there are all sorts of discussions

on what are the best towns to retire to.

447

: 00:30:25

But when I think about it, it's like,

who's your community and network, right?

448

: 00:30:29

Like, the geographic places is

always, of course, interesting,

449

: 00:30:34

but who are your people?

450

: 00:30:35

Like, what's your village?

451

: 00:30:36

and I think having.

452

: 00:30:39

explicit conversations with people

about what, what matters to you,

453

: 00:30:44

and who your tribe is, is just super

454

: 00:30:47

Kimberly: important.

455

: 00:30:48

Mm hmm.

456

: 00:30:49

I, I agree.

457

: 00:30:50

And I, like we've been stressing,

it all starts with conversation.

458

: 00:30:53

So please folks.

459

: 00:30:55

Go out there and start to have

conversations about life, your

460

: 00:30:59

future, you're, we're not too young.

461

: 00:31:02

We're never too young to

really think about it.

462

: 00:31:04

And even for young people who may

be tuning in, try to strike up

463

: 00:31:07

a conversation with your family.

464

: 00:31:09

Let them know that you're

coming from a loving place.

465

: 00:31:12

So that people aren't scared and recoil

in fear, because, as we know, and I'm

466

: 00:31:16

sure you know that, you know, the 2030

is that number is flashing yellow.

467

: 00:31:20

There's going to be of the

population that are seniors.

468

: 00:31:24

So we're all going to be called

upon to step up and look after

469

: 00:31:29

a family, friend, colleague.

470

: 00:31:31

It's just reality.

471

: 00:31:32

The numbers are going to bear that out.

472

: 00:31:35

And so the question is, how do we show up?

473

: 00:31:37

And we talked about,

the idea of showing up.

474

: 00:31:41

And, being present and, and how do,

how do we tackle and navigate this

475

: 00:31:47

situation, this life, experience that

we're, this journey that we're all on.

476

: 00:31:52

And you turned me on to,

to someone, Joan Halifax.

477

: 00:31:56

And I just want to read a haiku because

I think her haiku, this haiku that I

478

: 00:32:01

found really sums up a lot can move into

the next phase of this conversation.

479

: 00:32:05

And she writes quietly trying to

sort through the 10, 000 things.

480

: 00:32:10

And I think that's a perfect

haiku for this entire situation.

481

: 00:32:15

It's not one thing.

482

: 00:32:16

It's not two things.

483

: 00:32:16

There's a myriad of issues and topics

and points that all need to be explored.

484

: 00:32:22

I know that you have a lot of experience

engaging stakeholders on these.

485

: 00:32:27

broad, large scale, topics, and

I want to talk more about some

486

: 00:32:32

of your experience with Kaiser

487

: 00:32:33

Permanente

488

: 00:32:34

Kimberly: and, break down, some of

the key points from your work with,

489

: 00:32:38

Kaiser Permanente's Innovation Center.

490

: 00:32:39

Thank you.

491

: 00:32:40

And I believe that they can be

applied to this situation as well.

492

: 00:32:44

number one, there are

no templated solutions.

493

: 00:32:47

Number two, multifaceted systems

are required to address them.

494

: 00:32:51

Number three, solutions must scale to

millions of members for true impact.

495

: 00:32:56

And number four, movement making is

required to transition ideas to reality.

496

: 00:33:02

So let's explore that because I

know what some of these topics, in

497

: 00:33:05

particular, this one, like I said,

there's so many different angles.

498

: 00:33:09

There's food insecurity, there's housing,

there's end of life conversations.

499

: 00:33:14

How can we apply some of those ideas that

you explored with KP to this situation?

500

: 00:33:21

Jennifer: Yeah.

501

: 00:33:22

so all of those challenges that

you just rattled off are, they're

502

: 00:33:27

part of complex adaptive systems.

503

: 00:33:30

and, they're, they're really.

504

: 00:33:33

There are problems that you have to

solve on a systems level, so like you can

505

: 00:33:38

solve one part of the problem and then

the problem itself may change, right?

506

: 00:33:44

So, we have to understand, and tackle

these problems, at an individual level.

507

: 00:33:52

At a community level, and

then a lot of times at like an

508

: 00:33:56

interconnected policy level.

509

: 00:33:59

you see this with, with climate

change, there's individual action,

510

: 00:34:04

but obviously there's, policy level

change that, that needs to occur.

511

: 00:34:09

and, and the work that I've been doing

with, food and nutrition insecurity.

512

: 00:34:14

is very similar, right?

513

: 00:34:16

Like there are programs that, how

do we just get individuals, who are

514

: 00:34:22

eligible enrolled in snap, which is what

was formerly called food stamps, to,

515

: 00:34:27

supplement their, their purchasing power.

516

: 00:34:30

there are other community level solutions

around getting folks, connected into

517

: 00:34:36

resources in the community and food banks

and all sorts of, supplemental programs.

518

: 00:34:42

And then I think there's also just

incredibly important work that needs

519

: 00:34:46

to be done at the policy level.

520

: 00:34:48

even asking like, how do we

expand eligibility for SNAP?

521

: 00:34:52

There are people who maybe should

be covered by this benefit.

522

: 00:34:58

and how do we begin to, have

reimbursement for food as medicine, right?

523

: 00:35:03

If we, we know that food impacts

health in, in very specific cases,

524

: 00:35:08

how do we, effectively lobby, a

number of different governmental

525

: 00:35:13

programs to, provide reimbursement?

526

: 00:35:16

So, I guess in short, none of

these problems can be solved by

527

: 00:35:22

a single actor in the system.

528

: 00:35:24

And so ways that we can bring

people together, that come from

529

: 00:35:31

very different perspectives is super

530

: 00:35:33

Kimberly: important.

531

: 00:35:35

I agree.

532

: 00:35:37

I wanted to, um, just explore

the whole, uh, idea of, of.

533

: 00:35:40

food has medicine, just,

534

: 00:35:42

I know you're, you're involved in

that, or you've engaged on that topic.

535

: 00:35:46

And, my comment about that is in,

as a caregiver from my aunt, she

536

: 00:35:50

was fortunate to be a part of the

537

: 00:35:52

Meals on Wheels

538

: 00:35:53

Kimberly: program and, she was able

to get healthy, nutritious food for

539

: 00:35:58

her, and I know it made a difference

for her in the end of her life.

540

: 00:36:02

And I know that nutrition in general is.

541

: 00:36:05

is a huge issue for elders.

542

: 00:36:08

some of them are living alone,

so they're not able to...

543

: 00:36:12

I think there's nutritionally or they're

not, in a space physically or emotionally.

544

: 00:36:16

I know with her, just getting her

to eat and getting her to even drink

545

: 00:36:19

water, what's a, what's a real issue.

546

: 00:36:22

So it seems like just education is a key

component of that, but I'd love to hear

547

: 00:36:28

more about, um, the food as medicine.

548

: 00:36:30

Jennifer: I think there's been.

549

: 00:36:32

a growing recognition.

550

: 00:36:35

In fact, I would say we, we

recognize, right, that food

551

: 00:36:40

contributes to better health outcomes.

552

: 00:36:42

And I don't think we need

to study that anymore.

553

: 00:36:45

I think, there are a couple

shifts that are happening.

554

: 00:36:48

one is, we need to be talking

more about nutrition security.

555

: 00:36:54

where you're getting the proper type

of food rather than just calories.

556

: 00:37:00

And, and there's a shift, although

there is not yet a clear definition of

557

: 00:37:04

what, nutrition security, looks like.

558

: 00:37:07

but there is also, a struggle,

to, find the resources, to...

559

: 00:37:13

to pay for a lot of these services.

560

: 00:37:15

And I think, a lot of the conversation

is, How does the medical system show up,

561

: 00:37:22

and, provide reimbursement, for a lot of

these programs and that's beginning with

562

: 00:37:28

a lot of pilot programs, but we're still

just not there, with clear dedicated.

563

: 00:37:35

funding streams, to pay for something

that we know we see the benefit, right?

564

: 00:37:41

far better to invest in providing

somebody with proper nutrition

565

: 00:37:46

to avoid type two diabetes.

566

: 00:37:49

then to put someone on a

medication, that they have to

567

: 00:37:52

take for the rest of their lives.

568

: 00:37:54

That's a thousand dollars a month, right?

569

: 00:37:56

Like it's very clear.

570

: 00:37:58

and like a lot of things were just

not there yet, but we've definitely

571

: 00:38:03

We definitely started the conversation

and that's, getting back to that

572

: 00:38:07

last question, like, this is where

people have to come together.

573

: 00:38:10

and last week I was involved in

some super exciting work, with food

574

: 00:38:16

banks that, are, are really coming

together to, to understand food

575

: 00:38:21

as medicine and, and their role.

576

: 00:38:22

And, I was incredibly impressed, right?

577

: 00:38:26

they recognize that.

578

: 00:38:30

There's a whole language and a whole

vocabulary with the health care system.

579

: 00:38:35

And they spent quite a bit of time,

getting up to speed to understand

580

: 00:38:39

the language of health care.

581

: 00:38:41

They invited me to come participate

and, share from a health care

582

: 00:38:46

perspective what that lens is.

583

: 00:38:49

And so, to the extent that

organizations can recognize.

584

: 00:38:54

That they need to bring in partners

and be cognizant of language and be

585

: 00:38:58

cognizant of external perspectives

and to actually seek them out.

586

: 00:39:04

that's how we're going to

solve these problems together.

587

: 00:39:07

it's unfortunately not in isolation.

588

: 00:39:09

It's not easy.

589

: 00:39:10

It takes a lot of time.

590

: 00:39:12

but that's how we're going to like really

address these like super gnarly problems.

591

: 00:39:17

Kimberly: You gotta, we gotta show up at

everybody and, we're all stakeholders.

592

: 00:39:21

So if you don't think you're a

stakeholder, I recommend you think again

593

: 00:39:25

and, think about it, not just from the

perspective of a loved one, but yourself,

594

: 00:39:31

what sort of future do you want to live

in where you're, an elder person in need

595

: 00:39:36

of support, healthcare, food, give it

some thought now so that you can start

596

: 00:39:41

planning and having these conversations.

597

: 00:39:44

Maybe there are some community

organizations you can be a part of, maybe

598

: 00:39:47

you can reach out and have conversations

with people like we're having today.

599

: 00:39:52

And, and I just strongly suggest people

just be proactive and take that step.

600

: 00:39:56

It'll help all of us.

601

: 00:39:58

Whatever step an individual will

take, it helps all of us because

602

: 00:40:01

we're all a part of the community.

603

: 00:40:03

There are a lot of resources online.

604

: 00:40:05

we'll have, Jennifer's information as

well, if you want to reach out to her.

605

: 00:40:09

And we are here with Jennifer Lieberman.

606

: 00:40:11

We are discussing envisioning the

future of elder care and healthy aging.

607

: 00:40:16

And I do want to shift and talk

about this whole idea of Optimism.

608

: 00:40:23

as you've indicated in, and as I

know, this topic is, it's so broad,

609

: 00:40:27

there's, there's a lot to do.

610

: 00:40:28

It's certainly not easy.

611

: 00:40:29

It's hard.

612

: 00:40:30

we get that.

613

: 00:40:32

But you, I know that you have considered

yourself an impatient optimist.

614

: 00:40:37

So tell us more about, that idea

because it's so intriguing and, and I

615

: 00:40:41

love it because I consider myself an

616

: 00:40:43

optimist.

617

: 00:40:44

but it's like, yeah, I'm

tapping my foot though, folks.

618

: 00:40:46

I'm saying let's, let's move this,

let's move this train forward.

619

: 00:40:50

Jennifer: Yeah, yeah.

620

: 00:40:52

I mean, my family would just tell you

this is, this is the way I'm wired,

621

: 00:40:56

but, if you've never been to the Bill

and Melinda Gates Discovery Center in

622

: 00:41:01

Seattle, it's really worth a visit.

623

: 00:41:03

and this is where I really

learned about inpatient optimists.

624

: 00:41:06

And I thought, man, that's just spot on.

625

: 00:41:11

I'm an optimist.

626

: 00:41:12

just by who I am.

627

: 00:41:14

and I think the inpatient part is so

important because, particularly spending

628

: 00:41:19

my entire career in healthcare, there are

just a lot of folks that are risk averse.

629

: 00:41:23

They want to study things more.

630

: 00:41:25

whether that's out of fear or a

desire to protect the status quo.

631

: 00:41:30

I feel like unless we push,

We're not going to make change.

632

: 00:41:33

and there are so many

things that need change.

633

: 00:41:37

and, part of this conversation that

we're having is you keep asking me,

634

: 00:41:42

Kimberly, what to do and whether

you're an individual or whether

635

: 00:41:48

you're an organization, I think

there's this tendency to say for

636

: 00:41:54

these really hard things, like, Oh,

somebody else needs to do something.

637

: 00:41:58

Like, as soon as.

638

: 00:42:00

X, Y, Z, then our

organization can do whatever.

639

: 00:42:04

And I think we just have

to get started, right?

640

: 00:42:07

Like, do you want somebody

else to shape your future?

641

: 00:42:12

Or do you, in a world of a lot

of uncertainty, want to define

642

: 00:42:17

that future for yourself?

643

: 00:42:19

And I, I think.

644

: 00:42:21

When we think of it in those terms,

it is scary to get started, but we

645

: 00:42:24

just have to, whether it's me as an

individual saying, gosh, maybe I need to

646

: 00:42:30

have this conversation with my family.

647

: 00:42:33

Or me and an organization

saying, Hey, there's a complex

648

: 00:42:37

challenge we need to solve.

649

: 00:42:39

are we going to wait for the federal

government to give us advice?

650

: 00:42:43

Or are we going to get started

defining what we need to see?

651

: 00:42:48

if you go to the Gates Discovery

Center in Seattle, they are

652

: 00:42:52

tackling so many social issues.

653

: 00:42:56

And what's so fascinating is

that everything there, they're

654

: 00:43:01

doing amazing work, Kimberly.

655

: 00:43:03

especially around the role of women.

656

: 00:43:05

there was an incredible exhibit last

time I was there about like women

657

: 00:43:09

holding the weight of the world.

658

: 00:43:11

And yes!

659

: 00:43:13

Every interactive exhibit is

about what you can do to get

660

: 00:43:19

started in your community.

661

: 00:43:22

and that's, that's what we have

662

: 00:43:24

Kimberly: to do.

663

: 00:43:25

Absolutely.

664

: 00:43:26

And I agree 100%.

665

: 00:43:28

I love it.

666

: 00:43:29

I think you're right.

667

: 00:43:30

There's this tendency to, tell me what

to do and, and to reach out to people.

668

: 00:43:34

And, and there's obviously

a need for that, depending

669

: 00:43:37

on what you're trying to do.

670

: 00:43:38

But at the same time.

671

: 00:43:39

what can you do, as an individual and

in navigating this whole issue with

672

: 00:43:44

my aunt, it was a lot of just my own.

673

: 00:43:48

I had to read, I had to

research, call people, right.

674

: 00:43:50

People do all this, do all that.

675

: 00:43:51

And I said, you know what, I'm

going to start a podcast because

676

: 00:43:54

I feel like I wish that I had

gotten some of this information.

677

: 00:43:58

I wish someone had handed me a book.

678

: 00:44:00

I didn't get it.

679

: 00:44:00

I didn't get that guide.

680

: 00:44:02

but you know, we're creating the book.

681

: 00:44:04

We're creating the

guides and you're right.

682

: 00:44:06

everyone look and think,

what can you do today?

683

: 00:44:09

It could be as simple as, you know,

writing down, I'm going to do something.

684

: 00:44:12

I'm going to take this

issue and make it my own.

685

: 00:44:15

I'm going to start to have a conversation.

686

: 00:44:17

I'm going to look at the

Gates Foundation information.

687

: 00:44:21

I'm going to learn about

innovation centers.

688

: 00:44:23

I'm going to learn about end of life.

689

: 00:44:24

I mean, it doesn't have to be

some huge, big dramatic thing.

690

: 00:44:27

It can just be one step forward, to move

the needle because like I said, we're all

691

: 00:44:32

going to have to take care of someone It's

just the way the numbers are bearing out.

692

: 00:44:37

So be prepared, and with the preparation,

you'll find that it'll ease your own

693

: 00:44:43

kind of discomfort around the topic.

694

: 00:44:46

and it'll just kind of put you in the

driver's seat and, you can be more in

695

: 00:44:49

charge of your own future and our own

future and our collective futures.

696

: 00:44:53

So.

697

: 00:44:54

You're right.

698

: 00:44:55

Jennifer's right.

699

: 00:44:57

Everybody get out there and and do

something and Let's not wait around

700

: 00:45:03

for someone else to to do what we

we know we can do ourselves And we

701

: 00:45:08

are here with Jennifer Lieberman

discussing and envisioning the future

702

: 00:45:11

of eldercare and healthy aging.

703

: 00:45:14

I do want to talk more about

your experiences in Africa.

704

: 00:45:18

I know that you have been working with,

that country and the needs going on there.

705

: 00:45:23

And I'd love to hear more about that and

what takeaways and any, insights that

706

: 00:45:29

could be applied to this conversation

that we're having now about eldercare..

707

: 00:45:33

Kimberly: Yeah,

708

: 00:45:34

Jennifer: gosh.

709

: 00:45:35

so, fortunately, global, food

insecurity was actually on the decline.

710

: 00:45:42

the trend was going in the right

direction until about: 2016

711

: 00:45:48

And unfortunately, with a whole confluence

of factors, so, climate change, where,

712

: 00:45:55

in Africa, you've had both flood and

drought, with, with conflict, and

713

: 00:46:03

particularly with the Ukraine war, which

has been, such a, a challenge for food

714

: 00:46:09

supply, particularly, in, in Africa, and

then COVID, and the economics of the,

715

: 00:46:16

the supply chain and inflation, all of

those factors have just come together

716

: 00:46:22

to create a global hunger crisis.

717

: 00:46:24

And I think the UN estimates like

there are 50 million people, that,

718

: 00:46:28

that are really suffering right now.

719

: 00:46:30

So.

720

: 00:46:31

I had the opportunity earlier this

year, to be in Kenya with, World

721

: 00:46:36

Vision, which is an NGO and the U.

722

: 00:46:39

N.

723

: 00:46:39

World Food Program, looking, with, with U.

724

: 00:46:43

S.

725

: 00:46:43

donors, looking at ways, to, to kind

of expand the aperture for, for giving.

726

: 00:46:50

and also to look at, emergency response

and, unrestricted gifts that really help

727

: 00:46:58

organizations when there is a crisis, just

kind of go in and do what they need to do.

728

: 00:47:04

when a lot of the other funding sources.

729

: 00:47:06

have a lot of restriction.

730

: 00:47:07

And, when there is a crisis and

you just need to pivot, how do you

731

: 00:47:12

access, funds to, to really do that?

732

: 00:47:16

I guess your question is,

what, what did I see there?

733

: 00:47:21

that.

734

: 00:47:22

relates to this conversation.

735

: 00:47:25

so much like Kimberly, we could, we

could talk for about a day on this.

736

: 00:47:29

So, I, I think overall, like really big

picture, I'm just struck by, I think

737

: 00:47:37

the challenges in the developing world

are around just food security and.

738

: 00:47:43

In the U.

739

: 00:47:44

S.

740

: 00:47:44

It really is a conversation

about nutrition security.

741

: 00:47:48

it's just it's, it's in a different place.

742

: 00:47:52

and I think one could maybe make

the assumption that, the developed

743

: 00:47:57

world is in a better place.

744

: 00:47:59

I don't know.

745

: 00:48:00

I saw a lot of things and

experienced a lot of things.

746

: 00:48:04

where I think we have just so much, to

learn, and I'll give you an example of

747

: 00:48:10

where I was just absolutely blown away.

748

: 00:48:14

there's, there's a lot of research that

shows that societies with greater gender

749

: 00:48:19

equity do better, economically, they have

better outcomes for, for children, better,

750

: 00:48:26

representative government institutions.

751

: 00:48:29

and so along those lines,

a lot of organizations.

752

: 00:48:34

that really understand that the root cause

of, of hunger is, is a poverty issue.

753

: 00:48:40

And, and so a lot of the work, is

really also around gender equity

754

: 00:48:45

and, and engaging, women in society.

755

: 00:48:49

And I was in a really, remote village

and also one where, they were extremely

756

: 00:48:56

affected by climate change and hunger.

757

: 00:49:00

And I had a conversation with a school

teacher, that I will never forget.

758

: 00:49:06

This young man, Griffin, was probably 25.

759

: 00:49:11

and he wanted to talk to me,

about just how important access to

760

: 00:49:16

clean water, was for him because,

most of his students were girls.

761

: 00:49:21

And when they began menstruating,

they really needed access to clean

762

: 00:49:25

water so that they would feel

comfortable coming to school.

763

: 00:49:29

And so what, what just struck me

was here is this young man and he's

764

: 00:49:35

advocating for girls in his community.

765

: 00:49:40

and when I think about the U.

766

: 00:49:41

S.

767

: 00:49:42

We have a lot of conversations about

gender equity and the role of women.

768

: 00:49:47

And from my vantage point, we're having

those conversations among a lot of women.

769

: 00:49:52

And here's a 25 year old wants

to talk to me about this and

770

: 00:49:57

had absolutely absolutely.

771

: 00:49:58

no squeamishness about

talking about, these issues.

772

: 00:50:02

And so, that gave me a lot of

hope, for what is possible.

773

: 00:50:07

It's, it's a starting point.

774

: 00:50:09

I think there's a lot of work

that, that still needs to be done.

775

: 00:50:12

but, a lot, a lot, a lot to, to

learn, from, from those experiences.

776

: 00:50:18

Kimberly: Awesome.

777

: 00:50:19

Thank you so much for joining us today.

778

: 00:50:21

This conversation has been

amazing and I know it will

779

: 00:50:25

resonate with a lot of people.

780

: 00:50:26

Obviously timed well, seeing that

there's a lot of conversations and a lot

781

: 00:50:30

of movement on this front in general.

782

: 00:50:33

I do want to just pick up on what you

were talking about as far as hope,

783

: 00:50:37

I think hope is obviously important.

784

: 00:50:39

It's a through line for a lot of

big change in society in general.

785

: 00:50:44

And in particular, I want to talk to

you about this concept of wise hope

786

: 00:50:48

and if you can expand on what exactly

787

: 00:50:51

does that mean

788

: 00:50:52

Jennifer: Yeah, I mean, I think

as we tackle and I really saw this

789

: 00:50:57

particularly, you know, in the developing

world where things at times can feel

790

: 00:51:01

hopeless, like, it's just such an

uphill battle with, so many challenges.

791

: 00:51:08

But even here in the U.

792

: 00:51:10

S.

793

: 00:51:10

I think it can be at times for people who

work in this space feel kind of hopeless.

794

: 00:51:16

I think we need to keep showing

up and to maintain that hope that

795

: 00:51:24

we can, we can make a difference.

796

: 00:51:27

Well, at the same time,

acknowledging how challenging

797

: 00:51:31

some of these problems are food.

798

: 00:51:33

Insecurity is, is complex.

799

: 00:51:35

It is not easily solved.

800

: 00:51:38

so we need to honor the challenge in

front of us and yet keep showing up day

801

: 00:51:44

after day with that north star in mind.

802

: 00:51:49

That that we're going to solve

these issues, and to be in

803

: 00:51:52

fellowship with each other, right?

804

: 00:51:55

Kimberly, it's, for the people that

are working in this space, to be able

805

: 00:52:00

to have relationships and call people

and celebrate the small things, right?

806

: 00:52:06

The, the CMS, requirement that we at least

screen for social determinants of health.

807

: 00:52:11

We want, of course, The healthcare system

to address those, but let's celebrate

808

: 00:52:16

those victories, so that we can, we can

keep our energy, up as we tackle problems

809

: 00:52:22

that, that really do, need to be solved.

810

: 00:52:26

Kimberly: Mm-hmm.

811

: 00:52:27

, I agree.

812

: 00:52:28

And just when I think about my own

experiences with my aunt, every day it

813

: 00:52:32

was, Like a new day and every step forward

was an accomplishment and every little

814

: 00:52:40

thing that happened We acknowledged and

I think I know that that really helped

815

: 00:52:47

us in navigating her her journey We just

kind of had to dial it all down and say

816

: 00:52:53

what is really needed in this moment.

817

: 00:52:55

Okay She needs to take her inhaler.

818

: 00:52:57

Okay, we need to get the oxygen whatever.

819

: 00:53:00

Okay, we need to go to the doctor

and celebrate You know what?

820

: 00:53:04

She was able to walk across

the room with the walker today

821

: 00:53:07

and didn't get as tired as the

822

: 00:53:08

day before.

823

: 00:53:09

Kimberly: There was no need

for a social media post and we

824

: 00:53:12

didn't have to blog about it.

825

: 00:53:14

It was just in those moments of

this is what we have to do and

826

: 00:53:19

I'm here serving that purpose.

827

: 00:53:21

It didn't always feel good, but

it was the right thing to do.

828

: 00:53:26

It was what was needed and I couldn't

have been more youthful for my

829

: 00:53:31

aunt and my family at that time.

830

: 00:53:33

And so...

831

: 00:53:34

I agree with you 100%.

832

: 00:53:36

We have to celebrate all of those.

833

: 00:53:38

I woke up today.

834

: 00:53:39

We woke up today.

835

: 00:53:40

You know, we'd make jokes about it.

836

: 00:53:42

It's like, how are you doing today?

837

: 00:53:43

Well, I'm up.

838

: 00:53:43

I'm here.

839

: 00:53:45

And that's cool because otherwise,

they're, there's so much that

840

: 00:53:49

feels like it's not moving.

841

: 00:53:50

But when you really think about it, a lot

positive, wonderful things are happening.

842

: 00:53:55

We have connected over

this, over this issue.

843

: 00:53:58

I have met amazing people

and have learned so much.

844

: 00:54:01

So keep going, everybody keep showing up.

845

: 00:54:04

We really need you.

846

: 00:54:06

and we have been here

with Jennifer Lieberman.

847

: 00:54:08

She's been breaking down so much, so much

wisdom and insight that she has gained.

848

: 00:54:14

In the healthcare field and from

her own personal experiences.

849

: 00:54:18

We love it.

850

: 00:54:19

Jennifer Lieberman can

be found on LinkedIn.

851

: 00:54:21

She's a great, great person to

connect with and she's very open.

852

: 00:54:25

So I recommend.

853

: 00:54:26

And you do that and Jennifer, we're

at the bottom of this conversation.

854

: 00:54:31

Thank you so, so, so,

so much for being here.

855

: 00:54:34

I really appreciate it.

856

: 00:54:36

I have to give a shout out to, to

Brandon's as who was, uh, you know,

857

: 00:54:40

one of the driving force of, of us

connecting, And for people who are

858

: 00:54:44

watching, please feel free to connect

with Jennifer and to explore the various

859

: 00:54:50

topics that we have talked about.

860

: 00:54:52

If you're interested in being a guest

on our show, you can reach out to us.

861

: 00:54:55

We'd love to hear more about what

people are doing in their communities.

862

: 00:54:59

You don't have to be a

quote unquote expert.

863

: 00:55:01

Love to hear from.

864

: 00:55:08

And we are going to close out episode

four of envisioning the future

865

: 00:55:13

of elder care and healthy living.

866

: 00:55:15

Join us next time for episode five.

867

: 00:55:17

We'll have another topic and another great

868

: 00:55:19

Kimberly: guest.

869

: 00:55:19

Thank you so much.

870

: 00:55:20

And we'll see you next